SUMMARY OF THE EXAMINATION OF THE STATE REPORT OF LIBYA
The Rapporteur on Libya, Commissioner Badawi, welcomed the Libyan representative, Ambassador Abugassa, and congratulated Libya on being the first signatory of the African Charter to send in its Periodic Report. He emphasized that the examination of the report was not to be a confrontation. Rather, questions and criticisms of the Commission should be understood as part of a cooperative and productive dialogue. Commissioner Badawi also emphasized that the state report must be frank, highlight the difficulties encountered in the application of the Charter. He then outlined the procedure by which the Libyan representative would first present the state report, the Commissioners would then raise questions and finally, the representative would communicate these questions to the Government of Libya.
Ambassador Abugassa expressed his pleasure at attending the session and his regret that the entire Libyan delegation, consisting of four members, had been unable to come. He outlined the report submitted by Libya by listing which Articles of the report addressed which rights.
He then answered, in order, the questions that had been sent to Libya by the Commission in response to the forwarded report. These were as follows: the Green Book is the basis of which all acts are extracted in Libya; the Libyan report refers to the legal framework on which all acts are based in Libya; many aspects of human rights are guaranteed; the legal source of human rights is all applicable acts; there are no conflicts between the Charter and Libyan law. He then said that Libya has adopted acts to encourage compulsory education, and that women enjoy complete equality.
Commissioner Badawi observed that these answers were in some respects incomplete. The Libyan report concentrates on civil and political rights rather that economic social and cultural rights, consists of legislative texts, and does not provide information on policies and programmes. He noted that the Libyan experience, if known, could be valuable to other countries trying to implement economic, social, and cultural rights.
Commissioner Badawi requested more information on the Libyan court system. He noted that the status of the African Charter in Libyan law was still not clear. He recalled a speech made by President Gaddafi which had recognized the necessity for some reforms to protect the accused, and inquired if any of the measures called for in the speech had in fact been implemented.
Commissioner Mubanga-Chipoya requested that the Commission be provided with the actual text of the Green Book and some acts, as well as of court judgments, in order for it to establish whether statutes were in fact being applied in such a way as to protect human rights. He also noted that non-legislative texts such as by-laws could be helpful examples of how Libya fulfilled its obligations.
Commissioner Nguema asked about legal checks on actions of the executive and the legislative bodies, if their actions were violating human rights.
Chairman Umozurike asked whether Libya had ever celebrated the African Day on Human and Peoples' Rights, used the media to educate the public about the existence and provisions of the Charter, or incorporated human rights into the educational system.
Ambassador Abugassa promised that he would submit all comments to the authorities in Libya, and hoped that soon the Commission would soon have full answers to all the questions raised. He then described the kidnapping of some Libyan prisoners of war from Chad by the United States, and deplored this violation of human rights.
Chairman Umozurike noted that Libya is also the first country to submit a communication under the state-to-state protective mechanism of the African Charter. He explained that the Commission would meet in the afternoon in closed session, draw up a list of formal questions and submit them in writing to the Libyan representative to communicate them to the Libyan Government.
EXAMINATION OF THE STATE REPORT OF LIBYA
Gentlemen, I welcome in particular his Excellency, the Ambassador of Libya, Mr. Mohamed S. Abugassa. I apologize for the late starting, we have a colleague of ours who is in the clinic and we had to see how he was faring this morning before we came over here. We have agreed to take the Periodic Reports today, and since the Ambassador himself is here, we will be pleased to start with the report of Libya. We have asked one of our colleagues to lead the examination of the report and that is Dr. Badawi who has made a special study of the report, and we shall intervene from time to time. Again we welcome you your Excellency and I therefore request Dr. Badawi to please lead the discussion.
In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate, I thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, first of all I should like to participate in welcoming his Excellency, the Ambassador Mohamed Abugassa, Ambassador of Libya to Nigeria. Actually, the presence of a delegate from the Libyan Government during the discussion of the first periodic report submitted by Libya reflects the importance the Government of Libya attaches in cooperation and setting up a dialogue with the African Commission on Human and Peoples' Rights.
As you will know, the Libya has signed the African Charter in 1985 and ratified it in July 1986 and finally, put in the signatory documents on 26 March 1987. Libya has to be thanked in fact, because it is the first state party to the Charter which has presented its report in accordance to the commitment provided for in Article 62 of the African Charter. You will recall, sirs, that in the 8th session of the Commission in Banjul, the report was discussed in a preliminary way and a number of questions were raised concerning this report. These questions were addressed to the Libyan Government and quite naturally, we hope that his Excellency the representative of the Libyan Government will be able to respond to these questions. However, before we start the objective discussion, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few remarks.
The main remark I want to make is summarized in the fact that the discussion of this report is of particular importance since it is the first report to be discussed by the Commission in accordance to Article 62 of the Charter and consequently, we hope that the discussion of this report will be an example to other discussions which are going to follow in order to avoid negative points and build on positive points. I should like to clarify that the discussion is not going to take place as a confrontation between the Commission and the concerned State. However, the discussion is going to take place in the framework of a dialogue, rather, between the Commission and the State, within the context of cooperation between the Commission and the State. Because the Commission and the concerned State are both partners in one objective, which is protection of rights enacted, or rather provided for, in the Charter.
As we have clarified before hand, Mr. Chairman, this cooperation and this dialogue are constant and are not situational. It is a constant process because there must be a field for constant improvement. There is no state in the world which is complete in the field of human rights. There is always a leeway to avoid negative aspects and we can always build in a better way. The questions to be addressed to the representative of the State must not be understood as a challenge to the State, but it is a positive criticism or a positive dialogue which aims a completion of the actual facts and the legislation in the State with the hope that the Commission will understand on the one hand this legislative image, and the State on the other hand will be able to understand the various aspects of this legislative image in the light of the discussion which is going to arise in this Commission. And also in the hope that this dialogue is going to achieve the objectives of the Commission and the State.
Quite naturally, it must be clear before us as a Commission and also it must be clear to the concerned State, that we are living in various situations from one State to another, that the situation does not enable rather the State to take all the measures it must take and consequently it is quite important, Mr. Chairman, that the State concerned must pay special attention to highlight to the Commission not only the positive aspects it has within its legislation from the point of view of the application of the Articles of the African Charter, but it must also highlight difficulties and obstacles which hamper its path in application of the provisions of the Charter.
Such frankness will assist the Commission on the one hand to understand the special circumstances of the State and will also assist the State on the other hand to understand the Commission and understand the framework in which the provisions of Charter are applied and consequently, the State and the Commission will cooperate in promoting cooperation and application in the desired trends.
I then conclude the remarks I wish to make where I define the framework in which the discussion is going to take place. As we had agreed, Mr. Chairman, the representative of the Libyan Government will now introduce the report of Libya, the first report submitted to the Commission, and after he has submitted this report, then questions or comments will be made by members of the Commission. And when the members of the Commission will have finished raising any additional questions or when they have finished making any comments on the statement made by the representative of the Government of Libya, then the representative of the Government of Libya, his Excellency Mohamed Abugassa will take note of what was mentioned and of course he will transfer the comments to his Government and will tell us of his Government's reaction. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission. I am very happy to be here. Please allow me to take this opportunity to express my deepest appreciation and gratitude to this Commission for its fruitful efforts enforcing the African Human and Peoples' Rights. I would like also to mention in this respect that my country is doing all it can to maintain contact and cooperation with your esteemed Commission, and is ready all the time to respond to any inquiry and without any hesitation.
Due to circumstances beyond our control, the Libyan delegation, comprising of four members, was unable to be here for this. Therefore, please excuse us.
I would like briefly to read the main points of our Articles included in the report. As mentioned earlier, Libya signed the African Charter of Human and Peoples' Rights in May 1985 and ratified it in July 1986. The report starts with Article 1, dealing with the rights of individuals. Article 2 dealing with the guarantee of rights and freedoms without discrimination. Article 3 deals with equality before law. Article 4 deals with freedom and personal safety. Article 5 deals with the respect for human dignity. Article 7 deals with freedom and personal security. Article 8 deals with the freedom of ideology and application, exercise of religious worship. Article 9 deals with the right of gaining information and expression of thoughts. Article 10 dealing with the right of forming associations. Article 11 deals with the right to hold meetings. Article 12 dealing with the right of movement. Article 13 dealing with the right of participation. Article 15 to 18 dealing with the right to work.
Generally speaking, Libya is doing all it can. All efforts are being made to try to succeed in this respect, and if you allow, Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission, to read briefly the response of the questions that were raised earlier, and then they will hand this to Mr. Chairman.
Number one, the legal position of the Green Book. The Book is the framework from which all laws are extracted in the Great Jamahiriya. Number two, the legal framework by which all the laws contained in the Charter are implemented and all the laws are applied in the Jamahiriya are referred to in the following report. Number three, there are many aspects of human rights guaranteed. The normal litigation aspect and litigation related to being offended for human rights - this is what is known as the People's Court. In addition to the court, there is an independent Human Rights Defence Committee of Masses Era. Number four, the legal source to preserve a human right is the applicable laws. Number five, the provisions contained in the African Charter agreed with the legal laws applicable in Libya. Therefore the need to adopt special laws as human rights guaranteeing emphasis on freedom does not arise. There are no difficulties or barriers restricting the application of the Charter. The country adopted many policies to deepen the principles of participation and enact laws for personal status or what is known as compulsory education. The woman enjoys complete equality as men in the laws applicable in the Great Jamahiriya. She enters all aspects of work - administrative and political positions. She occupies the office of secretary of the Minister of Education and breaks into the political offices in the People's bureaus, their embassies. There are no regulations that restrict enjoyment of the guarantee to male and female rights. Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, I thank you.
I thank you very much Ambassador Abugassa, the representative of Libya for the presentation you have made. I wish to commend you again that you are in fact the very first country to submit a periodic report, so you have placed a trail that we hope other signatory powers will also follow. It is for members then to put if they have any questions, but I shall expect Dr. Badawi to lead us on this and what you don't supply, we will then come in. Thank you.
BADAWI [Original statement made in Arabic]:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I should like to participate with you, Mr. Chairman, in thanking the representative of the Libyan Government for his presence with us, and also for some of the clarifications he has presented to us in the presentation which he has just made. Of course the field is now open - the floor is open if any members of the Commission wish to raise questions relating to the report or relating to the answers which have been mentioned by the representative of the Libyan Government.
Mr. Chairman, I do have some remarks relating to the answers given by Libya to the questions which were raised, because in fact, I do not see in fact answers to the questions raised by the Commission. For example, there was a question - and it is question number 8 on policies and programmes which the Libyan Government is thinking about or which are established in order to apply economic, social and cultural rights provided for in the Charter. If I insist, Mr. Chairman, on raising this question, this stems from two reasons. The first reason is that I know - and a number of people in the Commission will recall Benghazi session where a number of Libyan achievements were mentioned in the field of economic and social rights. However, the report which was sent to us, Mr. Chairman, does not include a presentation of these economic and social rights in a sufficient manner, but it is focused on political rights and civil rights.
Of course there is an indication in the report on the right to ownership and there is also another indication on the right to work, and there is an indication on the right to enjoy medical health, education and participation in the cultural life, and also the right to protect the family. But when we look at the information in the report relating to those rights, we see that the report is restricted to the legislative texts, but it does not indicate at all the policies and programmes and problems of the Libyan Government. Hence the question - which are the policies and programmes? In other words, what we request from the state is not only an indication of the legislative texts, but also an indication of the policies and programmes which are undertaken by the state in order to apply these legislative texts, especially in the field of economic and social rights.
It is not enough to indicate the right to work, but what other measures that are taken in order to provide work for people. What are the problems of unemployment? Of civil insurance? Once more, Mr. Chairman, when I insist on having more clarification in this respect, it is my knowledge of the fact that in Libya there are enormous achievements in this field and undoubtedly, if we are provided with this information, it will not only assist the Commission, but it will also assist the other States, other States party to the Charter. Because in the light of the factual information or practical information that we will receive from the state, later on we will be able to set out general recommendations which can be an inspiration in the light of our discussion of the reports. This is the first remark, Mr. Chairman.
The second remark I should like to make relates to measures in the courts. There is a clear text on the questions - what are the legal processes available to individuals? Once more, Mr. Chairman, the report indicates, in page 5 in the Arabic text, on the right to go to court, or to litigation. Once more, we have the legislative text on the right to go to court or the right to litigation, but if we have more information on defence, defence which is available and the fact of having fair trials, because we cannot speak about right to go to court or right to litigation without also mentioning the texts, detailed texts, which include a fair and just trial.
Yes, in Article 7 of the African Charter there is an indication on the principles on the right to go to court and the right to a fair trial amongst which the right to appeal and also the fact that there should be a public trial and also the fact that the victim is presumed innocent until he is proved guilty. But I would like also to see what are the rules which organize the tasks of the judiciary. Because the independence of the judiciary or if we afford guarantees to the lawyers, this is one of the main guarantees for the accused. This is the second remark, Mr. Chairman, on which I would like to see extra information in the report, in addition to the information we have in the initial report or, in addition to the additional information which has been mentioned by the representative of the Libyan Government.
The third remark, Mr. Chairman, and I do not believe we have received a sufficient answer in this respect, it is once again an important remark, not necessarily on the Libyan report but concerning the experience of the Commission which we are just starting now. Within the framework of legality, a question was addressed to the Libyan Government. This question relates to the legal framework through which the application of the texts quoted in the African Charter are applied. In the report and the question that was raised, we can see that there is an indication on the fact that there is a people's power established as a general framework for legislation in Libya, and we can see also a text that the Holy Koran is the law of the land in the Libyan Arab People's Jamahiriya. Naturally, Mr. Chairman, there is also an indication on the Green document.
We have a number of documents and I think it is important that the members of the Commission should understand the legal framework in Libya, or the infrastructure, the legal infrastructure for the documents. Any document, any law is based on another law and then, how have we included the African Charter as a commitment for the Libyan Government in the internal Libyan legal order. Has Libya's signature, ratification, does this mean that the Charter is enforced, that is any national in Libya can go to court and tell the court that the Government of Libya has ratified the African Charter and consequently, I have the right stipulated in such and such an Article in the Charter. Can a Libyan national do that? And why, Mr. Chairman, because the report indicates in its 2nd page that the Charter is enforced and has been implemented on 21 October 1986, that is, enforced in relation to the Charter as a whole and in relation to the member States, but as for the internal legal order in Libya, does the ratification of the Charter mean that the Charter has become part and parcel of the internal legal order in Libya or - so that the provisions be applied should laws be enacted which will guarantee the implementation of the Articles?
The Libyan Government said that the laws enforced in fact do cover the rights expressed in the Charter and consequently, there is no need to enact new laws. I agree with him from the point of view of the framework, but the question still remains from the legal point of view. If the situation requires it, that is, requires the enaction of new laws in the legal process in order to apply some of the Articles of the Charter, do we need a new law? Or is it enough that the Libyan Government has ratified the Charter? This, in fact Mr. Chairman, was what was meant by the question on the legal framework in which the provisions of the Charter can be implemented.
Last question Mr. Chairman, and in fact that is a praise addressed to the leader of the Libyan revolution President Muammar Gaddafi, because in fact he does represent a model, the pattern, which is courageous concerning his beliefs and his convictions. I am saying that because relating to the contents of human rights, we can see according to the information available that President Gaddafi before the People's Congress, General People's Congress, on 9 March 1988, the President indicates some of the mistakes which concern guarantees available to the accused, and he stresses the necessity of taking legal measures to guarantee an avoidance of a recurrence of the mistakes which lead to enaction of laws without having enough guarantees to people whose innocence have been proved later on. And the question here is - in fact because President Gaddafi at this Congress has asked and indicated the importance of presenting legal amendments or taking legal measures in order to avoid a misuse of some of the laws, and I do praise this positive aspect of things, but I think it is opportune that we should know from the representative of the Libyan Government whether, now or later, on, we should know of the measures that were in fact taken on the basis of the speech delivered by President Gaddafi at the General People's Congress which I mentioned just now.
Mr. Chairman, these are the remarks or the questions which I wish to raise, and of course that does not diminish in any way our appreciation to the Government of Libya for having presented its report to the Commission, because this report includes a number of important information and if I have raised those questions, as I have clarified earlier on, this is because it is necessary to complete some of the aspects in the Libyan society, and this will be of benefit to the Commission later on for the preparation of its general comments, and this will also be of benefit not only for the Libyan Government, but also for the other State parties to the Charter.
After these remarks, Mr. Chairman, I can only express once again my thanks and appreciation to the Government of Libya, and I do hope that this meeting will be the starting point for a constant and fruitful and beneficial dialogue between the Commission and the Libyan Government. I thank you Mr. Chairman.
I thank you very much, Dr. Badawi, for setting the tone of our discussions on the Periodic Reports. Before other Commissioners come in, I wonder if his Excellency wants to say anything before we go on.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like just to listen to the comments and questions of the members of the Commission, and later on I have just to really relay this information to Libya in order to get you their answers for the whole - the whole answer for these questions. I thank you very much.
Thank you, your Excellency. Mr. Mubanga-Chipoya?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wish to begin by expressing my gratitude to the Libyan delegation for taking the time and making the effort to come and work with us on the most important subject of implementing the Charter. They were indeed the very first country out of Africa to submit a periodic report and they did so, if I recall properly, within the prescribed time.
May I also express our gratitude for the help that country actually gave us when we held our session in Benghazi. It did provide us with the occasion, as a matter of fact, to see that quite a lot of effort is being done to meet a number of the provisions or most of the provisions, practically all the provisions of the Charter in that country. At first hand, we had opportunity to see to it ourselves.
After a very exhaustive presentation on possibly outstanding issues just made by Dr. Badawi, it is rather difficult for me to make an extensive comment on the report. But there is one point that I want to bring out, and bring out quite strongly. This is this that we have indeed been presented with the legislative efforts being made by the country in the paper before us, the Green Book, the number of basic documents which we were given at the time we were in Benghazi, but I think it is the wish of the Commission that we should get the actual texts of those basic instruments, not merely a summary of what the basic instruments provide. And for the purposes of this intervention, it is of particular importance to the implementation of the Charter that we are shown the actual practice in the day-to-day management of the matters of the Charter.
What I mean by that is - it would help the Commission greatly in deciding on the extent of implementation if the country of Libya would provide us with some court decisions, actual judicial decisions on some matters pertaining to the rights in the Charter and rights which might be other than reflected in the basic instruments of Libya.
It is only in this way, or it is mainly in this way, which we are able to see that what is written in the laws of the country is actually being carried out. Very often it is possible to have a beautiful statute, but when it actually comes to practice, nobody dares carry out the provisions of the statute, especially as against certain individuals in a particular society.
As well as these court decisions, it might also help the Libyan Jamahiriya to give us whatever rules, rules which might be actually less than statutes, by-laws, for example, helping them fulfil the obligations of the Charter. I don't know - maybe for the moment I have said enough. I thank you.
Thank you very much, Mr. Mubanga-Chipoya. Have other Commissioners anything to add to what we have already had? Mr. Nguema.
I thank you, Mr. Chairman. I must say that I did not have the privilege of perusing the document introduced by Libya, but in reference to the observations made by our colleague, Badawi, that was responsible for leading the exercise I believe I don't have much to say, I simply wish to raise questions that are already answered in the document.
The first question is as regards the state of law. In other words - if the state or an agency of the Libyan state violated the provisions of the law, is there a machinery, a mechanism that is provided for that the question, the issue, be taken up? This is my first question.
My second question is as regards the observance of human rights: if ever the legislative power in Libya adopts laws or texts that clearly violate the fundamental rights of the human being, a person, is there any machinery that has been provided to correct such a situation?
I did say that I did not have the time to peruse the document, and therefore it is quite possible that the questions I am raising are answered in the document, but since we have his Excellency here with us, probably he may wish to appease us on these two issues. I thank you.
Thank you very much, Mr. Nguema. If I may add a few more questions your Excellency, or rather remarks.
Over the years, the Commission had made certain recommendations and passed on to states, for we have a channel of communications namely we write the Foreign Ministry and copy to the Attorney General. But I would like to bring the recommendation of the Commission to your attention so that you could perhaps also do something about it. We have, for example, recommended that 21 October be celebrated as African Day on Human and Peoples' Rights. That is because on 21 October 1986, the Charter came into effect that was three months after the ratification by a simple majority of States, and we consider that the celebration of the event would help to keep the Charter in the minds of people.
Secondly, we have also recommended that regular broadcast be made, indeed we know the Commission has a duty to promote the Charter, but the Charter also places a responsibility on state members to promote knowledge of the Charter, so we recommended a regular broadcast be made on the radio and television so that people could know what the Charter is all about.
We also recommended that day that the teaching of the Charter, should be incorporated in the educational systems of the member states - at all levels of the educational system.
There was a fourth one, which perhaps you will say, I think from your submission you could say that you have already done it, namely that the Charter be incorporated in legislation. It is really interesting to know, because it would be of benefit not only to the Commission but to member States, especially with regard to certain obligations that are burden some like the economic and social ones, how a poor state for instance can do this even if a rich state can. So really incorporating the Charter, as referred to by Dr. Badawi, whether that is done in bits and pieces or whether this is done by incorporating all of this. Your answer would be that this had been done in bits and that all of the different parts have already become part of the Libyan law.
I just wanted to bring these resolutions that we have made to your attention, your Excellency, so that you would also help to pass on to the authorities that we have often made resolutions from time to time, and we will continue to do so, so that states can take serious account of them in their activities.
Have you any final remarks, your Excellency, because we are virtually coming to the end before we...
Thank you, thank you Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission. I am very much delighted to hear the remarks and comments and questions of the distinguished Chairman and members and I will try, in the near future, to submit all these comments to the authorities in Libya, and I hope pretty soon you will get full answers for these questions.
I would like also to take this opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to indicate that the application of African human and peoples' rights seems to suffer sometimes from outsiders. And I am citing here the incident of the Libyan prisoners of war in Chad who were trained, armed and eventually kidnapped by United States' Government against their own wish and will, from Chad to other unknown locations which became known of afterwards. Such actions do in fact violate the essence of human rights principles. The American action does in fact violate the Geneva Convention and all its related protocols. After all, those Libyans happened to be Africans, and we are now discussing the African human and peoples' rights.
We are therefore trying just to see what all this action is about and I ask your esteemed Commission to address this point, at least to find out what this incident is all about? Specially, those prisoners of war - their original country of captivity is Chad, now they are not in Chad. We know that in the international law and the Geneva Convention and all its related protocols dealing with a country which is engaged in a war against another country, prisoners of war do not like to go back - that is fine. But there is no war in Chad - we are really having difficulty in protecting our citizens. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I thank you very much, your Excellency. Let me thank you again for finding time to appear before us, and also thank you deeply for the cooperation that this Commission has enjoyed with your country.
You have been the first in one respect, which we already mentioned, namely submission of periodic reports. Your are also the first in another respect, namely the first state that has made an official communication to us on a protective activity. I got your letter a few days ago, I tried to contact you without success. The Commission has not come to that item, we shall in the next few days and I can assure you that we will give your communication very careful consideration. As I said, it is the first time we are having a communication of that type from a member State. I wish to thank you for being with us, and I hope that the cooperation that already exists between us and you will continue. I thank you very much, your Excellency.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand that your remarks, Mr. Chairman, by thanking the representative of the Libyan representative for being with us and for Libya's cooperation with us, and for presenting the report - hence I understand that we have finished discussing the Libyan report.
We agreed yesterday that we will then discuss in due course and we communicate with the Libyan Government. That was my understanding on our procedure yesterday.
Does this mean, Mr. Chairman, that the representative of the Libyan Government will be asked to attend this afternoon's session in order to talk on the report or have we now finished entirely with the discussion on the Libyan report? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
We would discuss amongst ourselves, but we also agreed at the suggestion of Mr. Mubanga-Chipoya to collapse two items into one. We shall discuss further but he need not be with us. We write them.
Excuse me. Does this mean that I will wait until you get me these questions in writing?
Your Excellency, we shall discuss amongst ourselves the periodic report you have submitted, and then we shall communicate with you in writing - from now on. Also the second issue you raised - we shall also let you know when actually we will take it.
Excuse me - there is technical mistake. The questions that were raised - I have the notes on them but I am going to get it again in writing?
Yes, we shall communicate your questions again.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Gentlemen, as a matter of procedure, do we accept to suspend the discussion on Libya for now and take it up subsequently, or do we do it now? What do you think? - Okay, so we can go on to the next one.
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